War Thoughts

[susandennis]

During the Viet Nam war, I spent a lot of time and energy and shoe leather railing against the war. I was in college and not very sophisticated in thought or deed (although, of course, at the time, I thought I was wise beyond my years). I've been thinking about that time a lot recently and have come to realize that I honestly had no intellectual feelings about the United States' involvement in that war. I didn't understand anything about it, with one exception.

I did understand acutely that my government was forcing my friends of the male persuasion to go to a foreign country, live in rice patties and probably get killed. This was a real killer for two reasons. Outside of the obvious one, almost as painful for me was the guilt. I remember vividly sitting in a calculus class taking a test and looking around the room. I was the only female in the room. The test was the grade for the semester. I realized that if my classmates flunked that test, it could well mean they were off to be killed. If I flunked that test, it meant... well, nothing.

Today's war is being staffed by volunteers. That makes it an entirely different ballgame. And I'm still trying to noodle out what that means. Part of me says if no one volunteered, we wouldn't be going to war. I know - way too simplistic.

We have a whole lot of military around here in Seattle and every night, on the news, they interview a member of the military or their family. Invariably they say:

"We have to support our troops' - I don't know why. I really don't know why we have to.

"We don't want to go to war". And, you joined the military to, what, play tennis? Because the uniforms were cute???

"No one wants to go to war" Ok, you joined the military and they have taught you to kill people and you don't want to go to what is the Olympics of that?

I don't have the answers and I haven't even finished figuring out the questions. I do know that my prejudice is deep. The National Guard shot students less than 2 hours away from me. Now they are going off to kill people in other countries and they want me to support them? The government forced my friends to interrupt their lives and go get killed. And now they want me to grab that flag and wave it in concert with the whole idea?

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a while and thought that writing about it would help me understand it... It's just pissing me off so I think maybe I need to think some more.

Comments

[susandennis]

I'm not sure I buy your 'if there weren't volunteers, there would be the draft again' thing. There were volunteers then, too. And I cannot believe this country will ever draft women. We are still part of the 'women and children' protected species. Not equal enough to draft.

[ruralrob.livejournal.com]

If it's any consolation to you, there's a lot - no, more than a lot - of questioning this side of the border too.

Canada always counted on the US as its friend. Particularly after September 11 when US flags were put up everywhere here in Canada and there were huge shows of support from us for all Americans. But I'm afraid your president has since damaged relations with its former allies (aside from the UK perhaps) in a way I would never have foreseen. On an individual basis, of course, Canadians still respect Americans - but as for your government and Bush in particular, I haven't heard any words of kindness this side of the border in months. And I think the damage he's done may be irreperable. Thats sad! (If its any comfort it's often Bush's own sanity that's questioned here.)

Sorry to be blunt, but I think its important Americans have an outside perspective. Respectfully and with love, RR.

[susandennis]

I love the internationality of LJ for this specific reason. There are a fair number of Canadians here - my office is about 10% Canadian. But, the only thing you ever hear from them about our government is bitch about immigration.

I'm delighted to get another perspective! And I'm kind of comforted to know that Canada agrees with me about Bush!

I do remember during Viet Nam when escaping to Canada was an oft discussed option. I remember people thinking it was so drastic because 'you'll never be able to come back' (which at the time looked true). What always confused me was why that was so terrible. I like Canada! Sure you have funny money and some strange words for some things, but Toronto is my favorite city and Vancouver isn't too bad either. I liked it a little better before you killed off Eaton's but, hey, we kill Woolworths.

I do appreciate your chiming in on this. I think it's really important to hear from others outside this country. I really do.

[katbyte.livejournal.com]

This entry will probably get more controversy than you need. My husband is retired military (USN Ret) and a Vietnam Vet so we have a pretty patriotic household.

I remember my brother was drafted during Vietnam. He ended up working in a field hospital in Korea where they were still fighting but no one heard about it because Vietnam was taking all the press. Before he went I offered to drive him to Canada, but he said it was his duty to serve. (His Words) When my father died, he was given a compassionate reassignment and never went back to a fighting zone. He spent the rest of his service in Germany.

I don't think you can realistically compare Vietnam and this war. I have mixed feelings about this war, and they are all predjudiced, so guess I will keep them to myself. I do think that when a soldier follows orders and fights for his country, we should not degrade him/her for it. People join the military for all manner of reasons, and usually not to go to war, that is just a consequence. The military trains and does many things for this country besides fight wars. Some join for an education they would not be able to get otherwise, and some just for the discipline, some because they just don't know what else to do. Yes, they are trained in combat, but they also fight homeland terrorism, etc etc. I don't feel we can blame the enlisted men for decisions made by the polititians. Whatever I might personally think about a war with the middle eastern countries, I will support the enlisted men and women.

Whew, that's enough, sorry.

[susandennis]

I appreciate your perspective but I can't buy it. Your other reasons for joining the military just don't work for me. We can train people for other things other ways. Education should not be predicated on killing. Fighting homeland terroism is still killing. People who join the military are trained to kill people. I have a really hard time understanding why I am obligated to support killing. I just do. Sorry.

Re:

[katbyte.livejournal.com]

You are entitled to your opinion, especially in your own journal. Many people fought for the right to free speech. Many also died.

[waning-estrogen.livejournal.com]

I think most of us are in the same boat here, as far as mixed feelings go. You're probably the closest to my feelings on this subject, but everyone here has spoken a bit of truth. I find these to be emotionally charged times, and I alternate between being pro- and anti-war. People don't join the military to kill people any more than people join the police force to kill people, and the military, contrary to what many think, exists to maintain peace, not wage war. And that's my opinion on the matter at this point in time.

[susandennis]

People don't join the military to kill people any more than people join the police force to kill people

This is a really good point... and it sure fucks up my black and white view of the world.

[katbyte.livejournal.com]

I respect you very much for the fact that you are so open minded, it is refreshing. I mean that sincerely. I have enjoyed your point of view on many things. We agree on quite a few things too. I tend to be pretty black and white too. Here's to us.

Re:

[katbyte.livejournal.com]

Thank you, you are right, many diverse feelings.

[emjaybaxter.livejournal.com]

Very thought provoking and I tend to agree with you. I'm a pacifist from way back. But I too am open minded enough to appreciate katbyte's comments and even agree with some aspects. I remember during the VNW how terrible I thought it was, and why were you there and why didn't more young men come to Canada. But I used to get upset as well at people who criticized the soldiers who were fighting there. I mean they were being killed and maimed and suffering all kinds of injuries both physical and mental. Nobody really wants to endure that.
More on this subject tomorrow. I just finished watching a TV show entitled The 1940s House and that, plus your post and my fondness for Vera Lynn just started my mind going in full tilt tonight. I just have to sit and think it through before I post more.
Tx for jarring my feeble brain into action.

why folks join the military

[jawnbc]

hi there,

interesting and important thread. I think that we should acknowledge that being in the US (or Canadian) military is largely the experience of working class men and women. As Bush's own service record shows, the children of the elite rarely enlist in the military. Lots of folks join ROTC to subsidize their university educations, including medical school. Others seek the experience-based learning of the military instead of university. And there are those....you get the idea.

But I believe that many of the "choices" young people make are more about what they're taught to believe about themselves as they are about a genuine consideration of *all* options available to them. It's no coincidence that I'm the only male from my working class neighbourhood that attended university; many didn't finish high school. And not because they were stupid.

I reject this war. I support those in military service who serve. Genuinely.