Give me your worst

[susandennis]

This journal is to record my life for the recording not for the audience, but every once in a while, I write to an audience. This is such an entry.

I'd like your help.

brendamom left a comment that she thought my posing my finances* was displaying too much information. And I'm curious about this. Sincerely.

I totally get that most people think of privacy as keeping everything about themselves as a giant secret. I'm not one of those people. I actually never have been. But, I am thoughtful about it. I do think about it. What is the risk? What is the harm?

If I post my address, what's the danger? I live on the 4th floor of a secured building. Yes, someone could sneak in the building's front door and somehow pick my unit out of the other 20 on this floor and pick the lock and get me, but I'm totally willing to risk that. Also, someone could scale the outside of the building and break in from my terrace. Again, I'm ok with those chances.

If I post my telephone number, people could call me. My telephone number - the same number I use today - for years was listed in the Seattle phone books. And, if anyone still has one of those, it probably still is in there - listed under my full name - Susan Dennis. Yep, I might get a prank call. Since I don't answer the phone unless I know who it is, that's not a problem for me.

If I post my income and what I spend my money on, what's the harm? What's the danger? What's the worst? I can't come up with anything myself. But, I'll bet someone reading this might have a list. Do you? Will you share? Please?

*I have posted my income and my spending this month in entries that I made 'friends only'. I'm seriously considering making them public. Frankly, the responses to this entry will likely dictate if/when I do.

Comments

Privacy

[pink-halen.livejournal.com]

I don't post details like that precisely because some people who don't need to know, want to know. There are people who are bold enough to ask point blank how much income you have. They never get an answer from me. You can infer that I have some money from what I do and where I go but noisy people will never be satisfied by guessing. They have no reason to need to know they just want to.

I was taught never to ask how much money someone has, never to ask how much you paid for something, and never to ask how old you are. However, if you volunteer that information that is not for me to say one way or the other that you should or shouldn't.

My email address is somewhat public but I still don't give it to those who want it so badly. Even if they can look it up, I don't give stores that information because they will just use it. I was rather upset with General Motors when I bought a new car because of email. I specifically didn't give them my email address and yet they found it and tried to USE IT.

Privacy is a very mix blessing. In foreign countries like Australia, you telephone listing only has a first initial. You can't look up people like you can here because you don know one S Dennis from another.

We in the US have become very cavalier with our information and then wonder why we get spam and unwanted phone calls.

I am certainly not going to tell you to NOT print the information but don't expect me to be forthcoming with similar information.

Re: Privacy

[susandennis]

I don't expect you (or anyone) to do anything. All I'm asking is what is the danger to me. I gather you don't think there is any.

Cool.

We clearly have different beliefs about money and information and that's cool, too.

[fbhjr.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can think of is it might increase the chance of identity theft.
But, I don't think it would increase it much.
It would take a pretty good con person to get a new ID with an address and phone number and nothing else.
As you say, that's in the phone listings. So, really shouldn't change the game.
Seeing your finances might raise the odds of being targeted as there is no information in the phone listings about if it would be worth trying to steal from someone.
This at least gives an indication of what could be stolen.

But, I really think it makes very little difference.

[susandennis]

Good extra thoughts there but I think your conclusions are mine. No real danger.

BUT, thief, if you want to steal the tampons, don't come here. Go to Mary's Place in Belltown :)

[belleweather.livejournal.com]

It also looks like you monitor accounts pretty closely, which actually reduces the risk of identity theft substantially.

[susandennis]

Oh I do. I am on each credit card and bank site at least once a day.

[christopher575.livejournal.com]

I honestly can't think of any reason not to post what you spend your money on if you feel like it.

[susandennis]

Ok. Thanks!

[mindyklasky.livejournal.com]

The lawyer in me cringes at your posting an open record that could potentially be used against you in a variety of far-fetched situations. Frex, you get into a dispute with a neighbor and you end up in court and the entries are used against you to show that you spend your money foolishly (vis a vis the neighbor's expectations). Or you get into a dispute with a vendor over quality of goods and you post that you got a refund and they sue you for defamation. (My lawyerly mind can spin out all sorts of these, but they're not *likely* to happen -- just possible.) Also, if someone wanted to have you declared incompetent, they might use the postings as an example of incompetent behavior, because it *is* out of the ordinary...

[susandennis]

OHHHH good points!! Especially that last one. Except really, it would just be one of a gillion in the list of out of the ordinary behaviours...

But you may well have just kept me keeping the money entries locked down.

Thanks, lawyer in you. I appreciate it very much.

[mindyklasky.livejournal.com]

::grin:: re "one of a gillion"!

This morning, I thought of one other reason. If you post things like, "Paid cleaning lady $100", you're invading the privacy of the cleaning lady. (I know you don't post her name, but people might be able to piece it together, with the knowledge that she comes from Bosnia, has a daughter who helps her, etc.)

I'm very intrigued by this discussion, and by the various answers you've received!

[susandennis]

Man, you have been paying attention!! And another good point. I'm pretty sure I've actually used her first name, too. Thank you.

[meowmensteen]

Thanks to all the information you post here, I'm going to start strategically selling fabric near all swimming pools, brunch diners, and on NPR. I'm going to get all your money.

[susandennis]

Since you're local, you should just come over and get it. Bring a bag. This is Seattle, after all.


hehehehehehe

[meowmensteen]

Speaking of which, did you notice there's a fabric shop on Virginia near the Market where the bead shop used to be?

[susandennis]

NO!!! I will investigate! Thanks.

[howeird]

Your journal, your rules.

I found the post educational, it gave me another way to think about fiscal responsibility, of which I have very little. And I'm jazzed that you have an IBM pension. When I worked at SeattleOIC, one of the teachers and her husband worked for IBM, and they were seriously secretive about what they earned there, even when they suggested I apply.

[susandennis]

I'm delighted that you find the info useful. That's very cool. Yeah, IBM embedded a new level of secrecy into everyone's DNA. I got over mine but I'm willing to be I'm one of the few.

[roasted-beets.livejournal.com]

My father never got over the IBM secrecy thing. My mom wanted to move from the apartment they rented to her own house very much. I don't know specifics (see IBM & privacy) but they found a house and my dad about died giving the information needed to get a mortgage but he did it. The deal fell through (as they do) and he would *never* go through that again.

Until I was applying for college aid and *that* almost killed him. I went to college but my mom never got her own house. She rejoiced as each of her four children bought their own homes.

[susandennis]

Wild and not a surprise.

In the early 80's (while I was still at IBM) there was a great article in the Wall Street Journal about two very similar cases that made their way to a high court about the same time. One involved an employee of IBM and the other involved an employee of another company.

I don't remember the details but I do remember they involved privacy. The non-IBM guy lost his case with the court saying the information in question was leaked by his employer was an accident. The IBM guy won his case because the court found that IBM imbued in its employees a sense of privacy that was greater than the common United States citizen!

I was only there 15 years which was a nano second in service time back in those days. So probably not long enough for the secrecy thing to get a good hold.

[roasted-beets.livejournal.com]

My high school bf is clawing his way to an IBM retirement. I'll ask him if it's still like that. He has Instant Messenger open all day at work and I can chat with him almost anytime. ;-)

[susandennis]

Interesting. I don't know anyone there any more but I do know it has changed considerably. The current CEO wears panty hose!

[belleweather.livejournal.com]

Eh, I have given up all expectation of privacy due to the kind of work I do. I'm just peevish that I can't ask the Chinese what my phone number was in 2002 when I need it for a form, because they know and I don't and I should get some return on that! :)

Seriously, though. I think we're conditioned to be silent and secretive about money for a lot of very BS reasons and that there is a lot to be learned from radical financial transparency. I think it's great that you're posting publicly about this sort of stuff. It helps me at least have a good sense of what responsible use of retirement income looks like!

[susandennis]

Cool! Thanks. Those Chinese!

[sophiawestern.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes! Obviously I feel this way since I have been posting my financials as well, but how can we learn if money is forbidden topic? How do you know if you're underpaid if no one will talk about income? How do you know if you could be getting something cheaper if no one will tell you how much anything costs? By keeping monetary information to ourselves, all we are doing is disadvantaging ourselves.

[belleweather.livejournal.com]

YES! And Susan's posts are specifically useful because I'm planning for early retirement and trying to get a sense of what life on a fixed income could be like for us. I really value the ability to benchmark against others

(And against you, too! I come from a family with a very unhealthy viewpoint on purchases and what is and is not frivolous -- or, as my hippie mum would say "conspicuous consumption. Watching peers post their financials helps me figure out where my behavior is abnormal -- that there are humans who buy new underpants without agonizing about it for 3 weeks, and that might be healthier than my way. :)

[sophiawestern.livejournal.com]

That's been something that reading all of these money diary type posts has helped me with. It has really put my spending in perspective.

[susandennis]

I remember well one day when I had been laid off and had not yet found another job and was watching every penny with a microscope, standing in the produce section trying to justify paying $.50 for a bunch of green onions. I really thought about it hard. I think I grabbed a cheaper yellow onion instead.

It's fascinating to me, too, to learn what others consider necessities and frivolous. Don't look to me for underpants guidance, though, I'm totally always commando. They cost too much and cause more laundry than I'm willing to do!

[fitzjameshorse.livejournal.com]

I think there are two seperate answers.
One is "security" based but I see nothing that suggests you breached your own security. You didnt specify (say) Wells Fargo bank or the password for your ATM Withdrawals. Nor did you mention broader investments.
The second is "privacy" based and thats obviously a matter of personal choice.
Although I was not this specific, i did make a similar post on LJ about three months ago. The occasion being my wifes retirement and how we were using her "package". But it did (and I cant scroll back for specifics) indicate how we would be living the rest of our lives.
Although there was no breach of "security", indeed one of my obsessions is that I dont do online banking (which I regard as insecure) and I keep no info on any computer.....there was arguably a breach of privacy on my part...after all I was talking about someone elses finances (albeit in general terms).

I always think of Facebook as a place where I say what I think.
And Live Journal as a place to say what I REALLY think.

[susandennis]

Thank you. I don't do Facebook so I have to do all my saying and thinking here :)

[hughville.livejournal.com]

It's your journal and you can post whatever you want. This is how I've always felt. People may not always agree with what you post but it doesn't change the fact it's your journal. I say post what you want to post however you want to post it. You are clearly comfortable with doing it. You aren't giving out info that would allow someone to clean out your bank account.

[susandennis]

Thanks and yeah, they are going to have to figure out another way to clean me out. :)

[shutterbug.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't see the harm. You could be completely locked down and still be at danger or a target.

I have always enjoyed your openness and appreciated that you have a comfort about your level of privacy. In a way, I guess it means you don't live in much fear compared to some of us.

As for your finances, it's your choice to share, so I don't believe it's TMI.

But if you start posting your bank account numbers, I'm going to have you committed ;)

[susandennis]

Thanks

[daphnep.livejournal.com]

I think that as a culture we have as deep of taboos about money as we do about sex--actually, more. We've figured out ways to talk about sex. We really haven't, about personal incomes and expenses. While money is glamorized and worshipped, we're totally not used to baring and sharing details of our own.

I suspect that her response comes from a place of concern, fear of the unknown, that feeling dismissed online as "concern trolling."

Thinking of possibilities, though, is it possible that someone online could use all your real info to sign up for things? New accounts in your name and address, etc. I don't know how identity theft actually works, but you're right about basic info being publicly available. I suspect baring financial info just treads into uncomfortably new territory. You're not, after all, sharing your actual account details.

[susandennis]

There is one woman in Chicago and another in Georgia and I think one in Alabama. Their names are all Susan Dennis and they all use my email address to sign me up for stuff.

The one in Chicago uses it for everything banking, shopping, wedding planning and I even got the documents for her house closing. I know more about her financials than I do my own. I finally wrote her snail mail to let her know. Didn't change a thing. She bought a new dress at Sears last week. I think it's ugly, but apparently she only wants my email address and not my opinion.

[topum.livejournal.com]

I am Norwegian (and Danish) and all of us have been doing it for ages. You can check anyone's income, deductions, net worth and taxes paid online. Everyone's info is public.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-comes-to-tax-transparency-norway-leads-the-field (https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-comes-to-tax-transparency-norway-leads-the-field)

In Moldova where we are now everyone knows how much their friends, neighbours, etc earn. People talk about it all the time freely, even with people they have just met. It is not a taboo question here at all.

[susandennis]

I did not know any of this and I am amazed! I don't seem to be doing anything shocking at all! Wow. Thank you. And thanks for the link. Fascinating.

[icyparadox.livejournal.com]

This is interesting to me - I recently started a journal under a new name because I felt the name I used on my old journal was too well known and too easily searched. I used to post a lot of very personal relationship information in my old journal, information that would be detrimental to my personal life but I wrote it out because it was cheaper than spending money on a counselor. I needed a place to vent and release the toxic energy I was feeling without confronting the people in my life with it. Journal watchers were always telling me I should not be feeling the way I was feeling and it made some people really angry, some so angry that they left but I wasn't writing it out for my journal friends - I needed to write it out for me. Now, I try to keep my public journal "clean" and only post my emotional problems as private. I know some people out there seem to enjoy destroying lives using the anonymity of the internet - just because they can. In that sense, I think posting financial information is far less dangerous and powerful than posting your emotional vulnerabilities.

[susandennis]

I think posting financial information is far less dangerous and powerful than posting your emotional vulnerabilities.

An excellent and valid point!

[siglinde99.livejournal.com]

I have found the postings interesting, and they have me thinking about my own finances. I'm pretty careful in my planning, but once the month is done, I erase the record because I have the credit card bills and bank statements to remind me about why I'm broke; I don't need more evidence!

I can't see how anything you have posted up until now could lead to identity theft etc. Frankly, if someone wants that info, they will have better ways to get it than looking in your LJ account.

[susandennis]

So good to hear that sharing the info has helped out. I'm totally into it now so stay tuned!

[hawk-soaring.livejournal.com]

As long as you don't post your bank account info... ;) Really. what's the harm?

[pinmedown.livejournal.com]

Only thing I can think of is that I used to work for a bank and one of the ways you could verify someone (over the phone) was to ask for the details of their last transactions.... But of course you need multiple verifiers so they would need more of your info too.

[susandennis]

Oh that's right! Another reason to keep it friends only. Thanks.

[badrobot68.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't post my address or phone number, or even my last name, but anyone can find that info easily if they want it. I made my LJ mostly friends only due to some work related posts where I got some rude comments from strangers, so as a business owner, I realized there were a lot of things I should not say publicly if people knew what store I owned.

As far as finances, I don't see the harm. I'd personally do them as locked (friends only) posts, but I really doubt anyone is stalking any of us through LJ.